Julian: I've seen through the illusion of the self but there is still identification with thoughts and a sense of separation..

Joseph's journey is here: http://completehumanity.blogspot.com/2014/06/joseph-koudelka-this-whole-thing-is.html

Here he is beautifully guiding Julian...

enjoy...

first post -

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 4:20 pm

Hello!!

I was wondering if I could speak with a guide. I've seen through the illusion of the self but there is still identification with thoughts and a sense of separation. I guess you could say there have been awakenings ( absence of me), but I still have a strong sense of existing. I'm currently in college right now and in the process of trying to figure out what I need to do with 'my' life. Career path, etc. financial situation of the future and it is becoming so stressful because I see the futility in seeking pleasure and avoiding pain. I'm stuck in this rut of knowing that what I think isn't it, but also believing that there is more to it.

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated.

Best

Julian

second post -

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 5:42 pm

Hi Julian,

Joseph here. I can guide you.

How can I help you?

Regards,

Joseph

third post -

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 5:47 pm

Hiya Joseph,

I'm really confused as to what I should do. There this deep sense of being lost and feeling as if there is something that needs to be done. I feel as if I am missing something but I don't know what. There is a longing for truth, but I cannot find it anywhere.

Fourth post -

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 5:57 pm

Here at LU I can guide you to realize for yourself two things specifically; that there is no doer, and no self. This will untie the whole bundle of confusion and is really the best medicine.

Are you ready to do that?

Joseph

fifth post-

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 6:09 pm

Yessir! :)

sixth post-

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 6:24 pm

Ok then :) A couple of formalities are needed to get underway. First - please take a look at viewtopic.php?f=16&t=221 and acknowledge that you agree and understand.

Second - Here are a few ground rules.

You agree to post at least once a day, even if only to say, "still here!"

I am not your teacher, all I can do is point, you look, until clear seeing happens.

In general, I will ask questions, you look deeply and honestly, and respond.

Responses require simple, uncontrived honest looking. There are no wrong or right answers.

Responses are best from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers, and stream of consciousness answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.

Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention into seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.

Please learn to use the quote function; See these instructions

Let me know if you agree to this also.

Thank you! - Joseph

seventh post-

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 8:01 pm

Sounds good to me!

eighth post -

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 8:10 pm

Great! In your first post you mentioned:

"I've seen through the illusion of the self but there is still identification with thoughts and a sense of separation. I guess you could say there have been awakenings ( absence of me), but I still have a strong sense of existing."

Tell me more about that, your direct experience of seeing through the illusion of self.

ninth post-

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 8:36 pm

Mmm..

There have been brief moments within the last couple of months where all labeling disappearing and there was simply experience happening. Nothing was separate from anything else because thoughts weren't labeling. Then thought came back and tried to understand it...it still does. It really wants to understand the absence of itself. I guess you could say "I' really want to understand the absence of myself when I'm not labeling things and believing thought.

tenth post -

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 8:55 pm

In your direct experience, right now, describe thinking.

eleventh post-

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 9:01 pm

Thoughts are appearing as I type this. Kind of an ongoing chatter with no mental cessation.

Coming out of nowhere and then disappearing. Not really knowing what the next thought will be.

Just words coming and going. Some describing this experience. There's a table, chair, lamp.

twelfth post-

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 9:26 pm

"Thoughts are appearing as I type this."

In your direct experience what is this "I" that types?

thirteenth post -

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 9:33 pm

No entity can be found in the direct experience...

There only seems to be an appearance of it in thoughts...but they are just thoughts.

fourteenth post -

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 9:37 pm

Exactly. Thoughts are known. Do thoughts know you?

fifteenth post -

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 9:46 pm

No :( They know nothing. No matter how hard they try. Or what they try to hold onto in this direct experience. It is all just a mental projection of what is experienced. Not an actual knowing/ understanding of anything. Just witnessing. Thought can't find an entity.. Just another thought saying it feels like "I'm" here.

sixteenth post -

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 9:50 pm

Look at your right hand. In direct experience, describe right hand.

seventeenth post -

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 10:17 pm

There is looking at a right hand but if there is no movement I cannot even sense that it is there. There is merely observing of an object there that thoughts label as hand.

eighteenth post -

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 10:25 pm

in direct experience, describe "looking at right hand". (Close your eyes for a few moments once or twice too as you explore this in direct experience)

nineteenth post -

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 10:37 pm

There's nothing there. In the direct experience of closing my eyes the only thing that is sensed is a presence, but no sense of there being a hand.

twentieth post -

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 10:42 pm

In direct experience, describe closing the eyes.

twentyfirst post -

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 10:45 pm

lol...i can't describe it. There is just seeing...images..forms and then there isn't. Appearances and then the disappearance of those images.

twenty second post -

Josephkoudelka » Fri May 30, 2014 10:56 pm

Who knows this, in direct experience? Is the I?

twenty third post -

jad437 » Fri May 30, 2014 11:01 pm

No...Just experience...and description...there doesn't seem to be a separate thing who knows this...I don't really know..there's less and less to say.

twenty fourth post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 7:51 am

Are experience and the description of experience two different things in direct experience(DE)?

twenty fifth post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 9:05 am

No, the description of the experience arises in the experience but it's not separate from the experience..

OMG!!!its the description of the experience (self) that is believing itself to be separate from the experience!!

twenty sixth post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 9:07 am

Are you a body or a mind?

twenty seventh post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 9:19 am

I had to step out of mind for this...because I kept going back to what the mind had heard. In this DE i am that which experiences itself in the apparent form of a body and mind but I am not that.

twenty eighth post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 9:24 am

In DE, what difference is there for any perception? Body, mind, desk, chair, sky...?

twenty ninth post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 9:36 am

It's hard to put into words. There is nothing really. Things appear but there are no beliefs that the body, or the chair, or the chair are really as they are. Only empty words or sounds pointing to a thing...but the description can't truly explain what it is

thirtieth post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 9:39 am

Do you know the description, or does the description know you?

thirty first post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 9:47 am

LOL of course! The description tries to know (mind, me, self, thoughts) but it will never know 'me' or this. Or god, source whatever we call it. All there is is knowing lmao hahahaha. There is knowing, experiencing knowing everything and nothing and in this knowing appears description trying to know itself hahahahaha

thirty second post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 9:51 am

:) and is there's self that controls this?

thirty second post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 9:59 am

LOL what a funny question there's no free will because it's all just happening freely. An appearance of control but none whatsoever. Neuroscience and quantum physics even show this. Omg! It's so simple no wonder the mind overlooks it!

thirty third post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 10:02 am

Yes! :) In DE is there neuroscience or quantum physics?

thirty fourth post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 10:25 am

No!!! There are no reference points!

thirty fifth post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 10:29 am

Are there any other candidates that could possibly contain this DE or knowing presence?

thirty sixth post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 3:50 pm

No...nothing just this DE...any speculation would be a reference to thought..

It's funny because there's an understanding that all seeking is an attempt of the mind to get out of its DE into a better moment. That moment never arrives but it "appears" to arrive through pleasure...but that comes and goes...so the mind is always trying to hold on to something...you've basically just annihilated my mind because it has nothing to hold on to. It keeps trying to look forward to something, but there's an understanding that that seeking is completely futile.

thirty seventh post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 4:12 pm

This is great! one more step! :)

"That moment never arrives but it "appears" to arrive through pleasure...but that comes and goes...so the mind is always trying to hold on to something."

Can the mind do anything in DE? Can one thought know another thought? is there any focus that drives this in DE?

"It keeps trying to look forward to something, but there's an understanding that that seeking is completely futile.

Same as above... and is any effort required for DE?

thirty eigth post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 4:28 pm

Confused about that first question. The mind can only describe nothing more...it does so automatically. Like...as if it had a function or job to just do one thing..repeating it over and over again..describing the car, chair, table...non-stop.

A thought is just describing another thought haha it's not knowing it. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by locus that drives...there seems to be an energy behind the thought ( believing in a separate self). That energy seems to disappear when the self is seen through?

No effort required for DE! It's just happening.

thirty ninth post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 4:47 pm

By locus, does DE have a location? Is there inside or outside, internal external in "It's just happening." ?

forty post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 4:49 pm

No, there isn't even such a thing as inside/ outside in DE. I can't describe " this". It can only be experience itself to know.

forty first post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 4:51 pm

Excellent! So who knows DE?

forty second post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 4:54 pm

Nothing :) hahahahaha

forty third post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 4:56 pm

Or no one rather...could say god, or source..but even then that seems like saying there is an entity there...It's just nothingness experiencing itself through "apparent" form.

forty fourth post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 5:06 pm

hahaha! Thank you for sticking with this. LOL! ok.

Relax into This. Thank you Julian. :)

At your leisure, please respond to the following questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from

your own experience. Describe it fully as you seeit now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue?

Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How

does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

forty fifth post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 5:16 pm

this last response snuck through while I posted the previous reply.

Or no one rather...could say god, or source..but even then that seems like saying there is an entity there...It's just nothingness experiencing itself through "apparent" form.

Is DE experiencing anything?

forty sixth post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 5:41 pm

Thanks so much! The peace has been here all along :)

1) There is the illusion of a self. A separate entity that has autonomous control over his or her own actions, but it is merely an illusion. Kind of like how optical illusions work. They appear as one thing, but are completely different from what was expected.

2) The illusion is an apparent person described through description. Through this description space and time is created and an individual is born. It's funny to talk about, but toddlers, or children have no sense of separation or a sense of self. Same for animals. There is no function in the body that enables these forms to identify with surroundings. We are taught at a young age what is "right" or "wrong", "good" or "bad". Then we become this "apparent" person who gets things right/ wrong and become "good" or "bad" and through this an illusory identity person is constructed. It serves a function solely in communicating with others- a story, but it's all just a dream. The self cannot be seen but it is just assumed to be here which is why the search for "liberation" or "enlightenment" is impossible. It is seemingly impossible because there is no one to become liberated from the beginning. Only in the story does the separate individual believe they must free themselves, but how can an illusion get rid of itself if it doesn't really exist? :P

3) There is the assumption that things will change once liberation occurs. but things stay exactly as they are. Emotions arise just the same. Sadness, pleasure, pain. The only difference is that there is no one to take life personally. In a sense it can be said that suffering can no longer occur because the suffering is the energy of the "one" who takes things personally. It is all impersonal. Prior to this dialogue there was seeming personalization of events. Things were taken personally and everything was happening to "me". Now everything is just happening to no one. Like energy expanding and never ceasing. No one there to latch on and take things as their own. The story still exists, but it is not seen as who I am.

4) Hahaaha It seems as if there was a deepening in the seeing through of this illusion :) But the subtle Aha! moment was in the recognition that thoughts try so furiously to understand and know life itself, and even this illusory "self". The guide that was helping me asked "Do you know the description, or does the description know you?" and it was almost as if two jigsaw puzzles fit together. Recognizing that the description ( words, self, mind) attempts to understand/ know but cannot and will never, but that which knows it is experience itself ( who you truly are). The description arises in the experience not vice versa which left me with realizing that I know nothing, but "I" know.

5) Intention, free-will, control, etc is so simple! ahha. Literally. A thought pops up. " Go eat food, or close the door" and those actions are played out. There is no do-er or controller who willingly summons thoughts to appear in order for actions and decisions to be made. Thoughts arise from nothingness and actions occur or don't occur. The difference is there is no longer a do-er who believes that they are themselves are doing the actions. It's quite the joke actually. The action is already set to happen ( kind of pre-determined) then thoughts simply come in after the fact to describe what is happening only thoughts take the form of being a separate entity who has autonomous control.

Thought pops up. Action happens or does not happen. :) There is no responsibility. In order for there to be responsibility there must be an individual who has responsibility. This does not mean that everything stops and control is lost. Control was never there. There was an appearance of control. Taking care of the kids will still happen, paying the bills will still happen. Everything will still happen as before, there just will be no separate person doing these things. Just life taking care of kids, and paying bills :)

6) That is all for me. No more questions for me <3 font="" joseph="" love.="" much="" so="" thanks="">

All the best.

fifty seventh post -

jad437 » Sat May 31, 2014 5:47 pm

Nope. Just itself haha

forty eigth post -

Josephkoudelka » Sat May 31, 2014 5:48 pm

Peace out!