Elena
So, Jon, what's up with ego? August 16 at 1:55am
Jon Oh, where to begin? I was living life moment by moment and thought I had it down pretty good. I met someone that was spiritually minded and I thought we could learn together and really get this down good. The sex was like nothing I'd ever experienced before so this is where maya pulled me in for the ride of my life. Even though I knew better, I couldn't help but go deeper and deeper into obsession with this lady. I'm still pretty shaken by this experience and my ego wants to blame and compare and all the what not that a messy break up will do. I know better (in my head I guess), but I just keep going round and round with this. So there it is in a nutshell. I've listened to the trilogy over again and starting to get some clarity, but I still find myself doing the monkey mind several times a day. I've lately just resigned myself to let it play through until I get sick of it and all the traps that maya sprung on me here.
August 16 at 2:06am
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Elena So it's about sex?
August 16 at 2:08am
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Jon Oh no, that's what kept me blind and coming back. It's about my ego still wanting to go back and wake her up. I know this sounds pretty elemental, but it's where I'm at.
August 16 at 2:10am
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Elena Are you awake?
August 16 at 2:11am
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Jon Back to her bed and the games played
August 16 at 2:11am
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Elena Jon, what you really want? Really?
August 16 at 2:12am
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Elena What do you want, Jon? Because it is not this imaginary ego that you are talking about
August 16 at 2:13am
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Elena WHat is that you want, John?
August 16 at 2:14am
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Elena John..
August 16 at 2:15am
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Jon I want that feeling I had after we made love. Like I was seeing live and living from my souls perspective. All the bs and all the beauty were the same, were essential and still all illusion. But an illusion that is necessary to play in this
August 16 at 2:15am
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Jon amusement park we call living here
August 16 at 2:15am
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Elena What was different at that moment ? what was the difference?
August 16 at 2:17am
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Jon I could see how beautiful and right EVERYTHING was
August 16 at 2:17am
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Jon no judgement
August 16 at 2:18am
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Elena yes, exactly
August 16 at 2:18am
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Elena so now imagine that it is always like that
August 16 at 2:18am
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Elena it is
August 16 at 2:18am
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Jon I can feel that occasionally
August 16 at 2:19am
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Elena what are the occasions?
August 16 at 2:20am
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Jon taking the moment to imagine it as you suggest. hadn't really thought to do that really. Just pining over what I was missing. duh
August 16 at 2:21am
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Elizabeth Jon, weird, just read this, about a relationship where they read Jed. http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2011/08/releasing-of-sufferer.html
August 16 at 2:21am ·
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Jon Will do, thanks Elizabeth.
August 16 at 2:21am
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Elena Ok, read what Liz posted. I didnt read it, but I trust that blog.
August 16 at 2:22am
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Elizabeth Sorry, facebook lagging, did not see all your posts, carry on, read later!
August 16 at 2:23am
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Elena it's perfect manifestation, Liz. I need to go to bed, and Jon has something worth to look up!
August 16 at 2:26am
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Elizabeth G'night Elena, be well.
August 16 at 2:27am o
Elizabeth Jon, sorry. Relationships often give you just enough heaven to know when you are in hell. But it does seem to be hell that teaches us so much.
August 16 at 2:29am o
Jon I just read the blog, and saved the video for later viewing. Pretty deep, have to feel it out. But for now I think I need some sleep, I have a business to run too. Yikes, that
August 16 at 2:45am
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Jon sounds like mind getting in there again. Still a bit confused and tired.
August 16 at 2:46am
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Jon Thank you Elena, and Liz.
August 16 at 2:46am
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Elizabeth Blog says a lot. Just take care of sellf for a while, read when you have a quiet moment. G'night Jon!
August 16 at 2:48am
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Raffi Rolf Hermann yeah good night. It's 2.40 pm here in cambodia:-)
August 16 at 3:40am
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Jon Next morning: Elena, it's curious that you asked earlier what I want. My wife was reminding me of what Jed said in incorrect; that if you don't figure out what you want, then when you accidentally happen upon it, you get a Pavlovian response. And you will keep searching for that Pavlovian response throughout your life until you finally figure out what you want. I just found this intriguing that I'm basically asked the same question literally hours apart.
August 16 at 9:48am
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Elizabeth Hi Jon, I think Elena is still sleeping.
August 16 at 9:55am
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Elizabeth Love the what do you want thing. At first it was peace, then truth, then self-lessness. Now it's world peace, feel like a pageant contestant.
August 16 at 10:04am
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Jon LOL! I know what you mean Liz, sometimes to joy is so full you want to spread it everywhere.
August 16 at 12:11pm
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Elizabeth Yes, but remember, Jed don't do heart. But he always kinda did, some very sweet moments where fellow feeling and lack of separation coloured the experiencing. I had a long flat affect period with Jed. Now it's alive and moving without a self to run it. Wild world. The D in the blog I sent you? we are friends as of this morning.
August 16 at 12:17pm
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Jon Sweet, I'm sure you both will grow with your friendship! I can relate to the sweet moments that Jed shared in his books. He don't do heart, but language limitations does allow for the guidance from the feelings I would call heart feelings. I guess they could be referred to spirit or truth feelings. But heart feelings has such a sweet ring to it. :)
August 16 at 12:22pm
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Elizabeth Well, I urge you to look at possibility of enlightenment on the internet, as we are here anyway. Why pfaff around when it can be 'yours" in a short time? In spite of being, I guess, moved by heart as much as anything, I got over the tone on RT and took it on. It's so simple it's actually baffling. Like Tony Parsons on crack. They, and I, ask people to look for the self. Where is it? So, Jon, where can you point to your self?
August 16 at 12:29pm
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Elizabeth I'm cracking up here, :-) obviously too much coffee! but the question stands, as it is at the core of the oily smoke of religiousity and spirituality that Jed speaks of, so eloquently. Who wants to be free? What is the truth?
August 16 at 12:42pm
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Elena So Jon, did you figure out what you really want? Go to the end - do not settle on anything that is middle station, because you know, you will never be satisfied then. What do you want?
August 16 at 3:15pm
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Elizabeth Yes, pick the easy question to answer! :-)
August 16 at 4:13pm
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Jon I've thought about this question for about an hour now Elena, and it still boils down to wanting that state of being that I described last night: Being in the state that I view life and living from a soul level, knowing that all is as it should be. However, I must admit the way I got to that state is very pleasing and I thoroughly enjoy getting there with someone. I know all the teachings are about it's only you etc. but I've never been to this state through auto erotica, and this is the only time I've attained that state with another person. I don't mean to sound raunchy here, but that's the way I can express fully what I want.
August 16 at 4:57pm
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Elena Jon, state is impermanent, and you probably know this - see how life just falls into this absolutely delicious state, then gets to another not so delicious. As long as one chase a state - any - delicious or not (we just naturally tend to chase delicious), one bound to the suffering - to want what is not there and not to want what is not what one wants. Perpetual wheel. So how to get out from the wheel? Recognize the truth. Is it easy? Yes and no. Why it is easy? Because it is right here and now, and available to everyone, without exception. Why it is hard? Because life long conditioning of the mind setup that there is me and everything else is out there. So anything you do - is from this "me" perspective that from it's premise is false. Take the root out. Seriously. Instead of pruning here and there - by any means people do it - self development, even spiritual most practices, sexual practices and anything what can come to mind to perfect the self and experience come from that false premise. Go for the root. Then you can have orgazm washing your dishes.
August 17 at 1:19am · 3 peopleLoading...
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Mateo Geoly damn woman... indeed. yes.
August 17 at 2:02am
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Simon Rather than damning women, I think like rivers we should leave them to run free
August 17 at 5:57am
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Elizabeth Well, to be pefectly fair, Elena, I only have orgasm if Ifind my husband washing dishes.
August 17 at 7:03am
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Simon Berryman Dish porn?
August 17 at 7:08am
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Jon Elena, you alluded to this the other night when you mentioned attaining the place of being without a partner. Just knowing that it's there and attainable has kept me thinking upon this for these past hours since. Whenever I start pining for this past state, I remind myself of your words and yes it does help me stop the pining. It doesn't help me get there though. Any suggestions? Liz that is funny about orgasmic honey do's. he he
August 17 at 7:21am
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Jon Elena, for the most part whenever I see myself doing the ME sentiment, I do try and open up to the grander perspective. That being that everyone is the ONE just different cells collectively making up the ONE. This is just a place that I'm having trouble working through; I hear what your saying about getting rid of the root, but once I tasted the sweet nectar of oblivion that I partook of, it is very difficult to not want that endless/timeless state of being in perpetuity.
August 17 at 9:47am
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Jon Nor am I sure that I don't want to.
August 17 at 9:47am
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Mateo Geoly Hare' Krishna, Hare' Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare' Hare'...
August 17 at 10:39am
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Mateo Geoly or rather, there's one thing about the path of Bhakti (devotion) that's got its perks: blissing out.
I'm familiar with ecstatic union. the sexy kind, the meditative kind, but both rode the same pendulum of 'me experiencing union; me falling from union.'
it's foreseeable that, in time, the pendulum'll get tiring. at such a juncture, you may happen to hear what elena's pointing toward.
August 17 at 11:40am
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Jon Yes I do Mateo, I'm just processing this again/anew? I too have been on that pendulum, just not to this level of "bliss". So I am a bit in conflict here, however I keep on with the process and all will be well.
August 17 at 12:12pm
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Elena Jon, oblivion is great - it's naturalness, it's just kissing, just hugging, just fking, just doing dishes. The problem usually that people are NOT in the oblivion - whatever "good" is going on - is subtle fear inside to loose it, whatever "bad" is going on - we want to reject it, we tense. What's good about taking the root out is that you fall into oblivion - every day oblivion :)
August 17 at 12:13pm
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Elena The root is "I am separate entity" "I am Jon" and so on. All the life springs from this assumption. So I must protect myself from either getting what I don't like/want or get more to myself of what I like/want. All life of illusiory "me" is about that.
August 17 at 12:17pm
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Jon Holding hand up: Guilty!
August 17 at 12:19pm
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Elena So look closer on what "I" is. Nothing mystical-shmistical, just plain look on what "I". "John","me",self is. So today just go around your life and see what you call "I". What is it really? If this will be difficult to pinpoint - break it on components - break to the components that are easy to spot - like this is thought, oh - this this body sensation, and so on...
August 17 at 12:20pm
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Elena And come back let us know what you found.
August 17 at 12:20pm
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Elena take your time, really look into it. Test in different situations. Try to pinpoint "I", self with clarity, certainty. See if it's possible. If not - break on components.
August 17 at 12:23pm
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Jon I will and get back to you. I have a very busy, business and it should be simple to look into I.
August 17 at 12:27pm
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Elizabeth While Jon is off, I am reading this at lunch break and learning much also. I know this and cannot express it so gracefully. And I know it from another perspective, that of power. In religious or guru-dominated sects, which I have belonged to, I was expected to receive the benefits of their contact with the divine. Experience of "God" was mediated by others, no matter how loving they were. This put me (in my head) in a powerless place. After realizing this (and I suck at being a devotee of any type) I wanted only the most direct contact with life, and nothing to do with teachers. Jed is pretty safe! This part always sounds abrupt, because it was, but after three days of looking for self, found that that was the filter that was preventing direct seeing/feeling/experiencing of life. So, um, yeah, what Elena says about the root. I is worth looking at.
August 17 at 1:20pm
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Marie Merillat I too "suck at being a devotee of any type". That's what started me on my journey in the first place. I was raised Christian and when that fell away, looked to Buddhism and Taoism and anywhere else that I could to find whatever it was I was looking for. My problem was always no matter how much truth I saw there was always something about religions or philosophies that made me think "bullshit" and then it would be all over. I couldn't buy into part of something and just dismiss the stuff that didn't sit well with me. I am so grateful for that part of my "persona" because I never got stuck anywhere for too long before it was time to go "further". :)
August 17 at 3:48pm
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Elena Jon, where are you my friend? What's cooking?
August 17 at 8:48pm
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Jon Hi Elena, I have been really looking for the I. It's about as paradoxical as saying that before the big bang there was nothing. The big bang is where everything that is anything got it's start. Time, space, matter, light. But my question is, how could there not be space prior? Where was this singularity? There was time, just not counted time. So, now that I got stuck on the biggies, I broke and broke and broke it down. I am just here in existence experiencing the universe as it happens (time again). My perceptions are that things happen to me or I have a hand in something happening to someone in my perception. Just now, I get on fb and watch this past lover get off of fb. Is it me telling myself stories? Am I her, am I me? I do understand the (in my head anyway) of what Jed talks about in the Matrix. Where Neo finally escapes the egg reality, but stops at the underground reality instead of passing right on through to all there is. He's still playing the game of illusion, I'm still playing the game, however I know that I am and to some degree I can foresee the next event or curve in the road. Or is this myself creating this event or curve to perpetuate my illusion? Oi vey.
August 17 at 11:08pm
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Elena Oi vey, Jon, look how much other people's crap (and I don't mean it literary, but when it is other people's ideas - its crap for you) you threw in this post - big bang/jed/Neo/Martix/egg and so on. When I asked you to check for yourself right here, right now. Forget Jed and Neo and Buddha and the pope, look with 2 of your eyes now - tell me what you see. Where is you there?
August 17 at 11:15pm
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Jon Okaaay, I see. I see myself looking at a small being trying to get the universes attention, so that he's not so alone in the vastness.
August 17 at 11:17pm
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Elena so it means that you see that you are separate from univerce/vastness? how is that possible?
August 17 at 11:19pm
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Jon I don't know how it's possible, but that's what I see. Alone always have been. So studied in the past and did take on the roles you mentioned above, but only to find a bs factor. Then it's set alone or just experience life.
August 17 at 11:22pm
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Elena You are not outside of everything/universe/vastness - this is not possible, it just feels like, right?
August 17 at 11:24pm
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Jon Yes this is just what it feels like.....except during those episodes I mentioned earlier, the viewing our universe at the soul level.
August 17 at 11:26pm
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Elena So it feels like you are separate, small and the universe it out there and you are here, left alone. Look at the feeling - look right at the feeling of painful separation - break down the experience on smallest cpomponents that you can pinpoint very clearly. Like where is that feeling located?
August 17 at 11:32pm
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Jon It's hard to describe....like I'm this huge shell or home to a large land and I'm viewing a very small me alone in the countryside inside me. Just standing there looking around and wondering...wtf? I got one taste of that ambrosia and I'm left here alone again? So this very small me is making this large me ask these questions....to find out how to dwell in that knowing without fear of loss.
August 17 at 11:39pm
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Elena Jon, you do not hold the focus, you drift...Where is the feeling? Feeling is viseral - find it in the body
August 17 at 11:41pm
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Jon Oh Elena, I thought I was somewhat poetic ;}....but seriously, it's located right between the power and heart chakras. Solar plexes region. It feels as if that is very bruised.
August 17 at 11:44pm
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Elena So you see - there are some thoughts, feeling, sensations, body, ideas. You can easily identify all these, right? What about self? Any self there? Can you find self?
August 17 at 11:47pm
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Jon I thought that is where the self is located. So I do see self there, a very hungry self.
August 17 at 11:49pm
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Jon Bruised self, but very hungry.
August 17 at 11:50pm
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Elena feeling in the chest is self?
August 17 at 11:50pm
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Jon Lower, between power and heart chakras.
August 17 at 11:51pm
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Elena feeling in the soleplexus is self?
August 17 at 11:51pm
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Jon No, I take that back...self is in my head too.
August 17 at 11:51pm
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Jon Always in my head.
August 17 at 11:52pm
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Jon Sometimes dwells in the solar plexes.
August 17 at 11:52pm
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Elena so self is not static sometimes as feeling in a solerplexus, sometimes as bugger in the head, sometimes as heat in pants?
August 17 at 11:53pm
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Jon Ha ha ha. No I stopped using that area for rational thought a long time ago. That's a play ground.
August 17 at 11:55pm
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Jon But yes, it is nebulus
August 17 at 11:55pm
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Elena nebulus is good observation, it's already better then solid static self. let's look deeper, ok?
August 17 at 11:56pm
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Elena we are going to the root, no less, ok?
August 17 at 11:56pm
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Jon Let's go, I don't know where we're going with this, but I'm game to see it through.
August 17 at 11:57pm
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Jon I think I need to see it through.
August 17 at 11:57pm
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Elena ok, so you are sitting in the room and what's around?
August 17 at 11:58pm
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Jon Me, this computer, lamp, glass of water, books, desk paraphinelia.
August 17 at 11:59pm
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Elena All that you named is reality - it exists. If you look - you can easily see glass of water. In fact, even if you close your eyes, it will be there - because it's real, it's part of the reality. It exists.
August 18 at 12:00am
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Elena So we have an anchor in the reality - glass of water. We know for sure it is real, right?
August 18 at 12:01am
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Jon yes.
August 18 at 12:01am
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Elena ok. so now you compare everything to the reality, and if it's clear just like reality - it exists, if it's vague - it's illusionary
August 18 at 12:03am
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Jon I will agree with that.
August 18 at 12:03am
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Elena body, is it real? Just like a glass of water
August 18 at 12:03am
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Jon Yes, it consumes the water in the glass.
August 18 at 12:04am
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Elena it's real, yes, body is there, you clearly see it, touch it, it's not vague - it exists
August 18 at 12:04am
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Elena are you thinking now?
August 18 at 12:05am
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Jon yes, it's real, heart beats, eyes tired....it's real
August 18 at 12:05am
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Elena can you catch a though? does thought exist? Any though in the head
August 18 at 12:05am
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Jon just what we're discussing
August 18 at 12:06am
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Elena thought/image/ideas easy to catch, right? Distinct in the head
August 18 at 12:06am
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Jon yes, very much so.
August 18 at 12:07am
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Elena emotion/feeling is it clear or vague? Can you pinpoint feeling? We just did sometime ago, but do it again
August 18 at 12:08am
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Jon Yes, solar plexes and head both. or rather thoughts in head trigger feelings in solar plexes.
August 18 at 12:09am
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Elena clear? exist?
August 18 at 12:09am
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Jon clear, but ummmm, very rapid fire.
August 18 at 12:09am
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Elena thought in the head - real, exist. triggers feeling in the chest - clear, exist
August 18 at 12:09am
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Elena fire in the chest - sensation - very clear - exist?
August 18 at 12:10am
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Jon do they really exist though?
August 18 at 12:10am
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Jon mostly about past events, almost all are.
August 18 at 12:11am
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Elena What? sensations, thoughts? look - they are there and now.
August 18 at 12:11am
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Elena we are clear on what is there and now right?
August 18 at 12:11am
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Jon yes, clear
August 18 at 12:12am
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Elena ok, if I tell you find batman in the room, can you?
August 18 at 12:13am
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Jon no
August 18 at 12:13am
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Elena why?
August 18 at 12:13am
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Jon batman doesn't exist in my room, nor in my head unless put there by someone making the suggestion.
August 18 at 12:14am
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Elena what is batman? It is a though/ image of batman, some feeling, maybe sensation - all that exists. Thought of batman is real, right?
August 18 at 12:15am
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Elena But the actual batman is illusion
August 18 at 12:16am
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Jon In that context, yes, real. And yes an illusion
August 18 at 12:16am
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Elena check with reality - thought is there - I told you "batman" and you have thought in the head, right? it exists here and now
August 18 at 12:17am
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Jon yes.
August 18 at 12:18am
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Elena if you would be small kid you would have sensations of fear or excitement in the body of batman. sensations, feeling - exist, real. Actual batman - is an illusion
August 18 at 12:19am
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Jon yes, the willingness to forgo disbelief.
August 18 at 12:20am
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Elena so look for the self, "I" Find self, compare to reality. Is it clear or vague?
August 18 at 12:20am
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Jon less real than batman I must admit.
August 18 at 12:21am
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Jon damn!
August 18 at 12:21am
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Elena see that self is just like batman. it's an illusion. it does not exist in the reality.
August 18 at 12:22am
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Jon yes, got that point just a moment ago.
August 18 at 12:23am
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Elena feelings, sensations, thoughts - exist - part of the reality - movement of consciousness. self - is an illusion - a construct in the mind - unnecessary separation construct that makes one feel small and separate from consiousness/universe/vastness
August 18 at 12:24am
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Elena in fac,t there is only vastness in the movement of thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc - no manager to life. Life is what is - constant movement
August 18 at 12:25am
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Jon So what are these bodies we inhabit? I mean I dwell in this body yes? Or is that some illusion too? I don't see how though.
August 18 at 12:26am
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Elena you do not dwell in the body - there is no you. Body is. Feeling is. Thought is. No you.
August 18 at 12:27am
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Elena Imagine you are a newborn baby - you lay there, you open your eyes - is there self in the baby or it's all an experience?
August 18 at 12:28am
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Jon It is experience. So where did I get the self that I thought dwelt in this body?
August 18 at 12:29am
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Elena As we grow a little mind start to construct that self which is illusionary
August 18 at 12:29am
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Elena where the batman dwell?
August 18 at 12:30am
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Jon thoughts
August 18 at 12:30am
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Jon mind
August 18 at 12:30am
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Elena so what is "I"?
August 18 at 12:31am
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Jon the same
August 18 at 12:31am
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Jon this is going to take some time to adjust to
August 18 at 12:31am
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Elena I is a though
August 18 at 12:31am
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Jon I get what your saying, but I must dispose of I as life is experienced.
August 18 at 12:32am
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Elena I is a thought that grab the experience. there is no ownership to the experience. it's not nessesary.
August 18 at 12:33am
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Jon yes, i see....this is liberating and a bit scary just now. ego is wanting to freak but doesn't have the power just now.
August 18 at 12:34am
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Jon wow!
August 18 at 12:34am
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Elena everywhere that you thought you were the center, the separate entity - is only an experience - life - univerce -vastness - in all these various movements. so you can't be outside of the experience/vastness
August 18 at 12:34am
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Jon and so we've come full circle to the first question you asked this evening. How can I not be a part of this vast experience?
August 18 at 12:36am
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Elena exactly. I would suggest you go and walk outside and look with fresh eyes on everything, like a baby. Go and walk outside, ok? and just look and see how all just a flow of life
August 18 at 12:37am
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Jon You just blew that away, thank you, my ego doesn't thank you though. he he
August 18 at 12:37am
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Jon Will do,clear night. Talk later? tomorrow perhaps?
August 18 at 12:38am
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Elena Yes. Go, look,
August 18 at 12:38am
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Jon bye.
August 18 at 12:38am
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Elena hugs
August 18 at 12:38am
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Elena So how is my friend doing?
August 18 at 5:25pm via mobile
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Jon I'm doing....today at my shop I've been listening to Jed's spiritual warfare off and on. But mostly I'm really trying to look at what we discussed last night. Trying to fathom the no me perspective and I'm doing very well considering that I've done it on the surface so to speak for the past 1 1/2 years. You just gave me a depth that I hadn't been to before. I must have been ready for this now, otherwise the universe wouldn't have brought us here eh? Many thanks my friend, and as I'm at work still, I will get online later tonight. Hope to see you then.
August 18 at 6:36pm
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Jon So today I've been dealing with the memories recent and relating them or rather reassigning them to experience the universe had me go through and dismissing the personal aspect. As I said in the earlier post I've done it more surface for awhile, I'm reminded of a metaphor with my cats. When the weather starts to turn warm, they do all this heavy shedding, but as the summer progresses they still shed, but it's closer to the skin so to speak. It's not as heavy and messy, but it still happens throughout the warm season. This is what I feel is happening to me, I'm shedding closer to the skin today.
August 18 at 10:26pm
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Elena Look that all experiences of life are experiences, and does not require separate entity - it's just waves in consciousness/vastness - body/sensations, thoughts/memories, feelings/emotions and everything else appear and disappear - creates illusion of this particular embodiment as a person.
August 18 at 10:44pm
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Jon This is what I've been breaking through today, the illusion that they happened to ME. I'm seeing that this isn't true, that they just happened and the universe had them happen in such a way that I experienced them. I took them personally so I'm undoing this personal aspect, showing myself the truth a reinterpretation so to speak.
August 18 at 10:48pm
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Elena You are doing awesome.
August 18 at 11:28pm
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Jon Thank you dear friend, for your time and patience.
August 18 at 11:29pm
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Elena Look, of cause we call ourselves "me". "I", "mine". BUT there is a huge difference if you really saw the illusion of self - you won't take it as set default as before.
August 18 at 11:29pm
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Jon Yes! language is limiting here, so "me", "I" etc. is a metaphor for this experience.
August 18 at 11:31pm
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Elena Yes. If you go to the movie, you think it's real? No, you know its a movie, illusion. You may have moments of identification, but they are just moments, overall you understand you are in a theater, and what's going on is an illusion. If you never been outside the movie theater, then you view what's going on as real. Not if you ever stepped outside and the mind noticed the difference.
August 18 at 11:33pm
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Elena Jon, if you look now,is there you in the reality, without referencing thought, image, memory, time, body, feeling, sensation?
Go ahead and tell me now. Without avoiding to write "I" or "me", if needed, write where is you in the reality?
August 18 at 11:41pm
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Jon I'm not fully there yet, but yes, when I view anything concerning my experience, I'm an observer and experiencing observer.
August 18 at 11:43pm
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Elena This is millisecond subtlest shift. there is no "no there yet". If it seeing - never unseeing. Can be hidden under life-long conditioning, but un-seeing? Nah. Like you can't be un-pregnant.
August 18 at 11:47pm
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Jon Yes, I see what you mean. And yes, it is the conditioning and the lifelong habit of unseeing that I'm still working through.
August 18 at 11:49pm
So, Jon, what's up with ego? August 16 at 1:55am
Jon Oh, where to begin? I was living life moment by moment and thought I had it down pretty good. I met someone that was spiritually minded and I thought we could learn together and really get this down good. The sex was like nothing I'd ever experienced before so this is where maya pulled me in for the ride of my life. Even though I knew better, I couldn't help but go deeper and deeper into obsession with this lady. I'm still pretty shaken by this experience and my ego wants to blame and compare and all the what not that a messy break up will do. I know better (in my head I guess), but I just keep going round and round with this. So there it is in a nutshell. I've listened to the trilogy over again and starting to get some clarity, but I still find myself doing the monkey mind several times a day. I've lately just resigned myself to let it play through until I get sick of it and all the traps that maya sprung on me here.
August 16 at 2:06am
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Elena So it's about sex?
August 16 at 2:08am
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Jon Oh no, that's what kept me blind and coming back. It's about my ego still wanting to go back and wake her up. I know this sounds pretty elemental, but it's where I'm at.
August 16 at 2:10am
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Elena Are you awake?
August 16 at 2:11am
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Jon Back to her bed and the games played
August 16 at 2:11am
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Elena Jon, what you really want? Really?
August 16 at 2:12am
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Elena What do you want, Jon? Because it is not this imaginary ego that you are talking about
August 16 at 2:13am
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Elena WHat is that you want, John?
August 16 at 2:14am
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Elena John..
August 16 at 2:15am
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Jon I want that feeling I had after we made love. Like I was seeing live and living from my souls perspective. All the bs and all the beauty were the same, were essential and still all illusion. But an illusion that is necessary to play in this
August 16 at 2:15am
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Jon amusement park we call living here
August 16 at 2:15am
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Elena What was different at that moment ? what was the difference?
August 16 at 2:17am
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Jon I could see how beautiful and right EVERYTHING was
August 16 at 2:17am
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Jon no judgement
August 16 at 2:18am
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Elena yes, exactly
August 16 at 2:18am
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Elena so now imagine that it is always like that
August 16 at 2:18am
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Elena it is
August 16 at 2:18am
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Jon I can feel that occasionally
August 16 at 2:19am
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Elena what are the occasions?
August 16 at 2:20am
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Jon taking the moment to imagine it as you suggest. hadn't really thought to do that really. Just pining over what I was missing. duh
August 16 at 2:21am
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Elizabeth Jon, weird, just read this, about a relationship where they read Jed. http://markedeternal.blogspot.com/2011/08/releasing-of-sufferer.html
August 16 at 2:21am ·
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Jon Will do, thanks Elizabeth.
August 16 at 2:21am
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Elena Ok, read what Liz posted. I didnt read it, but I trust that blog.
August 16 at 2:22am
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Elizabeth Sorry, facebook lagging, did not see all your posts, carry on, read later!
August 16 at 2:23am
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Elena it's perfect manifestation, Liz. I need to go to bed, and Jon has something worth to look up!
August 16 at 2:26am
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Elizabeth G'night Elena, be well.
August 16 at 2:27am o
Elizabeth Jon, sorry. Relationships often give you just enough heaven to know when you are in hell. But it does seem to be hell that teaches us so much.
August 16 at 2:29am o
Jon I just read the blog, and saved the video for later viewing. Pretty deep, have to feel it out. But for now I think I need some sleep, I have a business to run too. Yikes, that
August 16 at 2:45am
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Jon sounds like mind getting in there again. Still a bit confused and tired.
August 16 at 2:46am
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Jon Thank you Elena, and Liz.
August 16 at 2:46am
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Elizabeth Blog says a lot. Just take care of sellf for a while, read when you have a quiet moment. G'night Jon!
August 16 at 2:48am
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Raffi Rolf Hermann yeah good night. It's 2.40 pm here in cambodia:-)
August 16 at 3:40am
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Jon Next morning: Elena, it's curious that you asked earlier what I want. My wife was reminding me of what Jed said in incorrect; that if you don't figure out what you want, then when you accidentally happen upon it, you get a Pavlovian response. And you will keep searching for that Pavlovian response throughout your life until you finally figure out what you want. I just found this intriguing that I'm basically asked the same question literally hours apart.
August 16 at 9:48am
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Elizabeth Hi Jon, I think Elena is still sleeping.
August 16 at 9:55am
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Elizabeth Love the what do you want thing. At first it was peace, then truth, then self-lessness. Now it's world peace, feel like a pageant contestant.
August 16 at 10:04am
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Jon LOL! I know what you mean Liz, sometimes to joy is so full you want to spread it everywhere.
August 16 at 12:11pm
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Elizabeth Yes, but remember, Jed don't do heart. But he always kinda did, some very sweet moments where fellow feeling and lack of separation coloured the experiencing. I had a long flat affect period with Jed. Now it's alive and moving without a self to run it. Wild world. The D in the blog I sent you? we are friends as of this morning.
August 16 at 12:17pm
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Jon Sweet, I'm sure you both will grow with your friendship! I can relate to the sweet moments that Jed shared in his books. He don't do heart, but language limitations does allow for the guidance from the feelings I would call heart feelings. I guess they could be referred to spirit or truth feelings. But heart feelings has such a sweet ring to it. :)
August 16 at 12:22pm
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Elizabeth Well, I urge you to look at possibility of enlightenment on the internet, as we are here anyway. Why pfaff around when it can be 'yours" in a short time? In spite of being, I guess, moved by heart as much as anything, I got over the tone on RT and took it on. It's so simple it's actually baffling. Like Tony Parsons on crack. They, and I, ask people to look for the self. Where is it? So, Jon, where can you point to your self?
August 16 at 12:29pm
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Elizabeth I'm cracking up here, :-) obviously too much coffee! but the question stands, as it is at the core of the oily smoke of religiousity and spirituality that Jed speaks of, so eloquently. Who wants to be free? What is the truth?
August 16 at 12:42pm
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Elena So Jon, did you figure out what you really want? Go to the end - do not settle on anything that is middle station, because you know, you will never be satisfied then. What do you want?
August 16 at 3:15pm
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Elizabeth Yes, pick the easy question to answer! :-)
August 16 at 4:13pm
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Jon I've thought about this question for about an hour now Elena, and it still boils down to wanting that state of being that I described last night: Being in the state that I view life and living from a soul level, knowing that all is as it should be. However, I must admit the way I got to that state is very pleasing and I thoroughly enjoy getting there with someone. I know all the teachings are about it's only you etc. but I've never been to this state through auto erotica, and this is the only time I've attained that state with another person. I don't mean to sound raunchy here, but that's the way I can express fully what I want.
August 16 at 4:57pm
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Elena Jon, state is impermanent, and you probably know this - see how life just falls into this absolutely delicious state, then gets to another not so delicious. As long as one chase a state - any - delicious or not (we just naturally tend to chase delicious), one bound to the suffering - to want what is not there and not to want what is not what one wants. Perpetual wheel. So how to get out from the wheel? Recognize the truth. Is it easy? Yes and no. Why it is easy? Because it is right here and now, and available to everyone, without exception. Why it is hard? Because life long conditioning of the mind setup that there is me and everything else is out there. So anything you do - is from this "me" perspective that from it's premise is false. Take the root out. Seriously. Instead of pruning here and there - by any means people do it - self development, even spiritual most practices, sexual practices and anything what can come to mind to perfect the self and experience come from that false premise. Go for the root. Then you can have orgazm washing your dishes.
August 17 at 1:19am · 3 peopleLoading...
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Mateo Geoly damn woman... indeed. yes.
August 17 at 2:02am
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Simon Rather than damning women, I think like rivers we should leave them to run free
August 17 at 5:57am
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Elizabeth Well, to be pefectly fair, Elena, I only have orgasm if Ifind my husband washing dishes.
August 17 at 7:03am
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Simon Berryman Dish porn?
August 17 at 7:08am
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Jon Elena, you alluded to this the other night when you mentioned attaining the place of being without a partner. Just knowing that it's there and attainable has kept me thinking upon this for these past hours since. Whenever I start pining for this past state, I remind myself of your words and yes it does help me stop the pining. It doesn't help me get there though. Any suggestions? Liz that is funny about orgasmic honey do's. he he
August 17 at 7:21am
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Jon Elena, for the most part whenever I see myself doing the ME sentiment, I do try and open up to the grander perspective. That being that everyone is the ONE just different cells collectively making up the ONE. This is just a place that I'm having trouble working through; I hear what your saying about getting rid of the root, but once I tasted the sweet nectar of oblivion that I partook of, it is very difficult to not want that endless/timeless state of being in perpetuity.
August 17 at 9:47am
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Jon Nor am I sure that I don't want to.
August 17 at 9:47am
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Mateo Geoly Hare' Krishna, Hare' Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare' Hare'...
August 17 at 10:39am
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Mateo Geoly or rather, there's one thing about the path of Bhakti (devotion) that's got its perks: blissing out.
I'm familiar with ecstatic union. the sexy kind, the meditative kind, but both rode the same pendulum of 'me experiencing union; me falling from union.'
it's foreseeable that, in time, the pendulum'll get tiring. at such a juncture, you may happen to hear what elena's pointing toward.
August 17 at 11:40am
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Jon Yes I do Mateo, I'm just processing this again/anew? I too have been on that pendulum, just not to this level of "bliss". So I am a bit in conflict here, however I keep on with the process and all will be well.
August 17 at 12:12pm
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Elena Jon, oblivion is great - it's naturalness, it's just kissing, just hugging, just fking, just doing dishes. The problem usually that people are NOT in the oblivion - whatever "good" is going on - is subtle fear inside to loose it, whatever "bad" is going on - we want to reject it, we tense. What's good about taking the root out is that you fall into oblivion - every day oblivion :)
August 17 at 12:13pm
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Elena The root is "I am separate entity" "I am Jon" and so on. All the life springs from this assumption. So I must protect myself from either getting what I don't like/want or get more to myself of what I like/want. All life of illusiory "me" is about that.
August 17 at 12:17pm
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Jon Holding hand up: Guilty!
August 17 at 12:19pm
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Elena So look closer on what "I" is. Nothing mystical-shmistical, just plain look on what "I". "John","me",self is. So today just go around your life and see what you call "I". What is it really? If this will be difficult to pinpoint - break it on components - break to the components that are easy to spot - like this is thought, oh - this this body sensation, and so on...
August 17 at 12:20pm
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Elena And come back let us know what you found.
August 17 at 12:20pm
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Elena take your time, really look into it. Test in different situations. Try to pinpoint "I", self with clarity, certainty. See if it's possible. If not - break on components.
August 17 at 12:23pm
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Jon I will and get back to you. I have a very busy, business and it should be simple to look into I.
August 17 at 12:27pm
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Elizabeth While Jon is off, I am reading this at lunch break and learning much also. I know this and cannot express it so gracefully. And I know it from another perspective, that of power. In religious or guru-dominated sects, which I have belonged to, I was expected to receive the benefits of their contact with the divine. Experience of "God" was mediated by others, no matter how loving they were. This put me (in my head) in a powerless place. After realizing this (and I suck at being a devotee of any type) I wanted only the most direct contact with life, and nothing to do with teachers. Jed is pretty safe! This part always sounds abrupt, because it was, but after three days of looking for self, found that that was the filter that was preventing direct seeing/feeling/experiencing of life. So, um, yeah, what Elena says about the root. I is worth looking at.
August 17 at 1:20pm
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Marie Merillat I too "suck at being a devotee of any type". That's what started me on my journey in the first place. I was raised Christian and when that fell away, looked to Buddhism and Taoism and anywhere else that I could to find whatever it was I was looking for. My problem was always no matter how much truth I saw there was always something about religions or philosophies that made me think "bullshit" and then it would be all over. I couldn't buy into part of something and just dismiss the stuff that didn't sit well with me. I am so grateful for that part of my "persona" because I never got stuck anywhere for too long before it was time to go "further". :)
August 17 at 3:48pm
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Elena Jon, where are you my friend? What's cooking?
August 17 at 8:48pm
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Jon Hi Elena, I have been really looking for the I. It's about as paradoxical as saying that before the big bang there was nothing. The big bang is where everything that is anything got it's start. Time, space, matter, light. But my question is, how could there not be space prior? Where was this singularity? There was time, just not counted time. So, now that I got stuck on the biggies, I broke and broke and broke it down. I am just here in existence experiencing the universe as it happens (time again). My perceptions are that things happen to me or I have a hand in something happening to someone in my perception. Just now, I get on fb and watch this past lover get off of fb. Is it me telling myself stories? Am I her, am I me? I do understand the (in my head anyway) of what Jed talks about in the Matrix. Where Neo finally escapes the egg reality, but stops at the underground reality instead of passing right on through to all there is. He's still playing the game of illusion, I'm still playing the game, however I know that I am and to some degree I can foresee the next event or curve in the road. Or is this myself creating this event or curve to perpetuate my illusion? Oi vey.
August 17 at 11:08pm
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Elena Oi vey, Jon, look how much other people's crap (and I don't mean it literary, but when it is other people's ideas - its crap for you) you threw in this post - big bang/jed/Neo/Martix/egg and so on. When I asked you to check for yourself right here, right now. Forget Jed and Neo and Buddha and the pope, look with 2 of your eyes now - tell me what you see. Where is you there?
August 17 at 11:15pm
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Jon Okaaay, I see. I see myself looking at a small being trying to get the universes attention, so that he's not so alone in the vastness.
August 17 at 11:17pm
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Elena so it means that you see that you are separate from univerce/vastness? how is that possible?
August 17 at 11:19pm
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Jon I don't know how it's possible, but that's what I see. Alone always have been. So studied in the past and did take on the roles you mentioned above, but only to find a bs factor. Then it's set alone or just experience life.
August 17 at 11:22pm
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Elena You are not outside of everything/universe/vastness - this is not possible, it just feels like, right?
August 17 at 11:24pm
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Jon Yes this is just what it feels like.....except during those episodes I mentioned earlier, the viewing our universe at the soul level.
August 17 at 11:26pm
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Elena So it feels like you are separate, small and the universe it out there and you are here, left alone. Look at the feeling - look right at the feeling of painful separation - break down the experience on smallest cpomponents that you can pinpoint very clearly. Like where is that feeling located?
August 17 at 11:32pm
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Jon It's hard to describe....like I'm this huge shell or home to a large land and I'm viewing a very small me alone in the countryside inside me. Just standing there looking around and wondering...wtf? I got one taste of that ambrosia and I'm left here alone again? So this very small me is making this large me ask these questions....to find out how to dwell in that knowing without fear of loss.
August 17 at 11:39pm
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Elena Jon, you do not hold the focus, you drift...Where is the feeling? Feeling is viseral - find it in the body
August 17 at 11:41pm
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Jon Oh Elena, I thought I was somewhat poetic ;}....but seriously, it's located right between the power and heart chakras. Solar plexes region. It feels as if that is very bruised.
August 17 at 11:44pm
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Elena So you see - there are some thoughts, feeling, sensations, body, ideas. You can easily identify all these, right? What about self? Any self there? Can you find self?
August 17 at 11:47pm
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Jon I thought that is where the self is located. So I do see self there, a very hungry self.
August 17 at 11:49pm
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Jon Bruised self, but very hungry.
August 17 at 11:50pm
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Elena feeling in the chest is self?
August 17 at 11:50pm
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Jon Lower, between power and heart chakras.
August 17 at 11:51pm
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Elena feeling in the soleplexus is self?
August 17 at 11:51pm
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Jon No, I take that back...self is in my head too.
August 17 at 11:51pm
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Jon Always in my head.
August 17 at 11:52pm
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Jon Sometimes dwells in the solar plexes.
August 17 at 11:52pm
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Elena so self is not static sometimes as feeling in a solerplexus, sometimes as bugger in the head, sometimes as heat in pants?
August 17 at 11:53pm
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Jon Ha ha ha. No I stopped using that area for rational thought a long time ago. That's a play ground.
August 17 at 11:55pm
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Jon But yes, it is nebulus
August 17 at 11:55pm
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Elena nebulus is good observation, it's already better then solid static self. let's look deeper, ok?
August 17 at 11:56pm
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Elena we are going to the root, no less, ok?
August 17 at 11:56pm
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Jon Let's go, I don't know where we're going with this, but I'm game to see it through.
August 17 at 11:57pm
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Jon I think I need to see it through.
August 17 at 11:57pm
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Elena ok, so you are sitting in the room and what's around?
August 17 at 11:58pm
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Jon Me, this computer, lamp, glass of water, books, desk paraphinelia.
August 17 at 11:59pm
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Elena All that you named is reality - it exists. If you look - you can easily see glass of water. In fact, even if you close your eyes, it will be there - because it's real, it's part of the reality. It exists.
August 18 at 12:00am
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Elena So we have an anchor in the reality - glass of water. We know for sure it is real, right?
August 18 at 12:01am
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Jon yes.
August 18 at 12:01am
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Elena ok. so now you compare everything to the reality, and if it's clear just like reality - it exists, if it's vague - it's illusionary
August 18 at 12:03am
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Jon I will agree with that.
August 18 at 12:03am
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Elena body, is it real? Just like a glass of water
August 18 at 12:03am
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Jon Yes, it consumes the water in the glass.
August 18 at 12:04am
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Elena it's real, yes, body is there, you clearly see it, touch it, it's not vague - it exists
August 18 at 12:04am
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Elena are you thinking now?
August 18 at 12:05am
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Jon yes, it's real, heart beats, eyes tired....it's real
August 18 at 12:05am
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Elena can you catch a though? does thought exist? Any though in the head
August 18 at 12:05am
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Jon just what we're discussing
August 18 at 12:06am
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Elena thought/image/ideas easy to catch, right? Distinct in the head
August 18 at 12:06am
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Jon yes, very much so.
August 18 at 12:07am
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Elena emotion/feeling is it clear or vague? Can you pinpoint feeling? We just did sometime ago, but do it again
August 18 at 12:08am
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Jon Yes, solar plexes and head both. or rather thoughts in head trigger feelings in solar plexes.
August 18 at 12:09am
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Elena clear? exist?
August 18 at 12:09am
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Jon clear, but ummmm, very rapid fire.
August 18 at 12:09am
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Elena thought in the head - real, exist. triggers feeling in the chest - clear, exist
August 18 at 12:09am
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Elena fire in the chest - sensation - very clear - exist?
August 18 at 12:10am
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Jon do they really exist though?
August 18 at 12:10am
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Jon mostly about past events, almost all are.
August 18 at 12:11am
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Elena What? sensations, thoughts? look - they are there and now.
August 18 at 12:11am
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Elena we are clear on what is there and now right?
August 18 at 12:11am
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Jon yes, clear
August 18 at 12:12am
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Elena ok, if I tell you find batman in the room, can you?
August 18 at 12:13am
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Jon no
August 18 at 12:13am
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Elena why?
August 18 at 12:13am
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Jon batman doesn't exist in my room, nor in my head unless put there by someone making the suggestion.
August 18 at 12:14am
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Elena what is batman? It is a though/ image of batman, some feeling, maybe sensation - all that exists. Thought of batman is real, right?
August 18 at 12:15am
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Elena But the actual batman is illusion
August 18 at 12:16am
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Jon In that context, yes, real. And yes an illusion
August 18 at 12:16am
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Elena check with reality - thought is there - I told you "batman" and you have thought in the head, right? it exists here and now
August 18 at 12:17am
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Jon yes.
August 18 at 12:18am
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Elena if you would be small kid you would have sensations of fear or excitement in the body of batman. sensations, feeling - exist, real. Actual batman - is an illusion
August 18 at 12:19am
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Jon yes, the willingness to forgo disbelief.
August 18 at 12:20am
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Elena so look for the self, "I" Find self, compare to reality. Is it clear or vague?
August 18 at 12:20am
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Jon less real than batman I must admit.
August 18 at 12:21am
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Jon damn!
August 18 at 12:21am
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Elena see that self is just like batman. it's an illusion. it does not exist in the reality.
August 18 at 12:22am
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Jon yes, got that point just a moment ago.
August 18 at 12:23am
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Elena feelings, sensations, thoughts - exist - part of the reality - movement of consciousness. self - is an illusion - a construct in the mind - unnecessary separation construct that makes one feel small and separate from consiousness/universe/vastness
August 18 at 12:24am
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Elena in fac,t there is only vastness in the movement of thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc - no manager to life. Life is what is - constant movement
August 18 at 12:25am
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Jon So what are these bodies we inhabit? I mean I dwell in this body yes? Or is that some illusion too? I don't see how though.
August 18 at 12:26am
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Elena you do not dwell in the body - there is no you. Body is. Feeling is. Thought is. No you.
August 18 at 12:27am
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Elena Imagine you are a newborn baby - you lay there, you open your eyes - is there self in the baby or it's all an experience?
August 18 at 12:28am
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Jon It is experience. So where did I get the self that I thought dwelt in this body?
August 18 at 12:29am
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Elena As we grow a little mind start to construct that self which is illusionary
August 18 at 12:29am
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Elena where the batman dwell?
August 18 at 12:30am
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Jon thoughts
August 18 at 12:30am
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Jon mind
August 18 at 12:30am
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Elena so what is "I"?
August 18 at 12:31am
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Jon the same
August 18 at 12:31am
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Jon this is going to take some time to adjust to
August 18 at 12:31am
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Elena I is a though
August 18 at 12:31am
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Jon I get what your saying, but I must dispose of I as life is experienced.
August 18 at 12:32am
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Elena I is a thought that grab the experience. there is no ownership to the experience. it's not nessesary.
August 18 at 12:33am
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Jon yes, i see....this is liberating and a bit scary just now. ego is wanting to freak but doesn't have the power just now.
August 18 at 12:34am
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Jon wow!
August 18 at 12:34am
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Elena everywhere that you thought you were the center, the separate entity - is only an experience - life - univerce -vastness - in all these various movements. so you can't be outside of the experience/vastness
August 18 at 12:34am
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Jon and so we've come full circle to the first question you asked this evening. How can I not be a part of this vast experience?
August 18 at 12:36am
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Elena exactly. I would suggest you go and walk outside and look with fresh eyes on everything, like a baby. Go and walk outside, ok? and just look and see how all just a flow of life
August 18 at 12:37am
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Jon You just blew that away, thank you, my ego doesn't thank you though. he he
August 18 at 12:37am
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Jon Will do,clear night. Talk later? tomorrow perhaps?
August 18 at 12:38am
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Elena Yes. Go, look,
August 18 at 12:38am
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Jon bye.
August 18 at 12:38am
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Elena hugs
August 18 at 12:38am
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Elena So how is my friend doing?
August 18 at 5:25pm via mobile
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Jon I'm doing....today at my shop I've been listening to Jed's spiritual warfare off and on. But mostly I'm really trying to look at what we discussed last night. Trying to fathom the no me perspective and I'm doing very well considering that I've done it on the surface so to speak for the past 1 1/2 years. You just gave me a depth that I hadn't been to before. I must have been ready for this now, otherwise the universe wouldn't have brought us here eh? Many thanks my friend, and as I'm at work still, I will get online later tonight. Hope to see you then.
August 18 at 6:36pm
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Jon So today I've been dealing with the memories recent and relating them or rather reassigning them to experience the universe had me go through and dismissing the personal aspect. As I said in the earlier post I've done it more surface for awhile, I'm reminded of a metaphor with my cats. When the weather starts to turn warm, they do all this heavy shedding, but as the summer progresses they still shed, but it's closer to the skin so to speak. It's not as heavy and messy, but it still happens throughout the warm season. This is what I feel is happening to me, I'm shedding closer to the skin today.
August 18 at 10:26pm
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Elena Look that all experiences of life are experiences, and does not require separate entity - it's just waves in consciousness/vastness - body/sensations, thoughts/memories, feelings/emotions and everything else appear and disappear - creates illusion of this particular embodiment as a person.
August 18 at 10:44pm
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Jon This is what I've been breaking through today, the illusion that they happened to ME. I'm seeing that this isn't true, that they just happened and the universe had them happen in such a way that I experienced them. I took them personally so I'm undoing this personal aspect, showing myself the truth a reinterpretation so to speak.
August 18 at 10:48pm
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Elena You are doing awesome.
August 18 at 11:28pm
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Jon Thank you dear friend, for your time and patience.
August 18 at 11:29pm
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Elena Look, of cause we call ourselves "me". "I", "mine". BUT there is a huge difference if you really saw the illusion of self - you won't take it as set default as before.
August 18 at 11:29pm
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Jon Yes! language is limiting here, so "me", "I" etc. is a metaphor for this experience.
August 18 at 11:31pm
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Elena Yes. If you go to the movie, you think it's real? No, you know its a movie, illusion. You may have moments of identification, but they are just moments, overall you understand you are in a theater, and what's going on is an illusion. If you never been outside the movie theater, then you view what's going on as real. Not if you ever stepped outside and the mind noticed the difference.
August 18 at 11:33pm
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Elena Jon, if you look now,is there you in the reality, without referencing thought, image, memory, time, body, feeling, sensation?
Go ahead and tell me now. Without avoiding to write "I" or "me", if needed, write where is you in the reality?
August 18 at 11:41pm
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Jon I'm not fully there yet, but yes, when I view anything concerning my experience, I'm an observer and experiencing observer.
August 18 at 11:43pm
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Elena This is millisecond subtlest shift. there is no "no there yet". If it seeing - never unseeing. Can be hidden under life-long conditioning, but un-seeing? Nah. Like you can't be un-pregnant.
August 18 at 11:47pm
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Jon Yes, I see what you mean. And yes, it is the conditioning and the lifelong habit of unseeing that I'm still working through.
August 18 at 11:49pm
Elena If I asked you to find that batman in the room, you won't go looking. But self - you saw - it's a thought, it's a label to specific experience - like experience of the arising of the body/mind at this moment. It's a label to the experience. Just like batman is a label to experience of specific thought/image. "I" is just like batman. Look again. Look around - any batman in the room, even though you have a thought of it and an image?
August 18 at 11:51pm
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Jon nope, no batman and no I. Again the metaphor thing.
August 18 at 11:52pm
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Elena "I'm still working through" no, you are not. there is no you. it's an experience of "working through" - no ownership to the experience in the universe, othervise you again seeing that you are outside. that is not possible.
August 18 at 11:52pm
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Elena It seems like, but in actuality, there is no you. Is it true?
August 18 at 11:54pm
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Jon ahh, more clarity on the process. Good!
August 18 at 11:54pm
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Jon I suppose it's true, but there is something, someone responding to your queries. Is that not a someone?
August 18 at 11:55pm
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Jon So this is a paradox.
August 18 at 11:57pm
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Jon There is no me responding to no you.
August 18 at 11:57pm
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Elena you think you are someone who doing the breathing, so you think you are a breather. what happens when you sleep? anybody doing the breathing? Or breathing just is. One of the possibilities of the universe/vastness that actualises?
August 18 at 11:58pm
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Elena "There is no me responding to no you." - no, there is just responding - typing, feeling, thinking - flow of life in different forms.
August 18 at 11:59pm
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Jon Or breathing just is. One of the possibilities of the universe/vastness that actualises? Could use a little clarification on this statement. Please?
August 19 at 12:00am
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Elena anybody doing the breathing at night? Anybody doing the rain? Or it just rains.
August 19 at 12:01am
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Jon No, no one doing either. Point taken.
August 19 at 12:02am
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Jon However, there is eating pleasing foods and all the other body pleasing activities. Yes, pleasing is a judgement call, but still.....
August 19 at 12:05am
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Elena pleasing foods are real just like your glass of water yesterday. It's clearly seeing, right?
August 19 at 12:06am
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Elena Newborn baby eat mother's milk. Is there a doer in the newborn baby or it's an instinct and movement of the body toward the breast?
August 19 at 12:08am
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Jon Yes, this body surely enjoys good water and takes it regularly.
August 19 at 12:09am
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Jon Wow! the newborn example again. That one does set the queries back to the truth. OK, got it!
August 19 at 12:10am
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Elena when you are in the middle of pleasurable sexual activity, there is no self in the middle of it - only movement toward and inward and heat and acute sensations, instinctual movements, breath, etc. - no you doing it - it's just happening - life expresses itself
August 19 at 12:11am
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Elena If there is thought in the middle of it - we call it bad sex. No thinking - no "I" - good sex, right?
August 19 at 12:12am
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Jon This is so very true, tried the tantric method and that just interupts the flow
August 19 at 12:13am
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Jon Mind and others trying to dictate what comes naturally.
August 19 at 12:14am
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Elena so you said 'the flow" - exactly - it's all flow. Baby is in the flow. baby is a flow. You are a flow. It's just conditioning in the mind says it's not.
August 19 at 12:14am
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Elena and to operate in the world we need to go as a form, but we can know that we are a flow
August 19 at 12:15am
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Jon That is so cool! keeping that as a mantra through my work-a-day.
August 19 at 12:17am
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Elena see, first baby is born and he is a flow. then he learns how to be the object in the world and learn that he is this separate self. then he lives all his life as separate particle and, because it is not true, it's a constant unsatisfaction, trying to resolve a riddle - all the search is about resolving this riddle. Then one moment he sees that in actuality he is not exist. Just like a baby - there is is a flow and always being a flow. what exist and always was is life in the form of this embodiment in all the movements, thoghts, feelings. The riddle solved - the search relaxes. What's left? A lot of mind/body conditioning that will start to fall off like leaves in a fall, gradually.
August 19 at 12:20am
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Jon So poetic a description Elena, very accurate account to what is happening to me today.
August 19 at 12:22am
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Jon However, this body is wanting sleep. Talk again tomorrow I hope.....hugs.
August 19 at 12:23am
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Elena Good night! ♥
August 19 at 12:24am
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Jon So I'm finding that as I'm shedding these conditioning's and ego infatuations, I'm in this unfamiliar place of "what do I do now?" I'm sure the universe provides the experience eventually, but all that's going on now is chop wood and haul water. Kinda flat. Don't get me wrong, it's a huge relief that there is no batman to answer too, but there is life and it's, shall we say, responsibilities. Perhaps the ego is wanting this, but I'm finding that some spice would be nice. :-)
August 20 at 1:24pm
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Jon Yesterday I had a customer call and tell me something I missed on his machine (I repair welders btw) and was pretty upset about it. Nothing dangerous or anything, but he went on to tell me he would take it elsewhere to get it done right. Usually I would have jumped up and down and through hoops to appease this situation. Instead, I just said to do what he thought best and went about my work. My wife overheard the conversation and asked me later how I felt, I told her I felt fine and that the universe just gave me another situation of choice. Either resort to the old familiar ego, or move on to the next experience; I chose the latter. So there is a somewhat leafless tree existing here, and it's nice not to carry the burden of worry and refacing.
August 20 at 1:40pm
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Simon Berryman Nice!
August 20 at 5:33pm
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Jon :)
August 20 at 5:35pm · 1 personSimon Berryman likes this.
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Simon Berryman freedom from drama!
August 20 at 5:43pm
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Elena Spice is not going away, unnesesary suffering is. Spice becomes more appreciation in flavor, less fear and drama. Try to go and appreciate every little thing around as amazing creation- you will become really high. What can be more spiced:) it can be some adjustment period Jon. But all it was - life before, no you.. All it is - life. No you. What changed? Only relaxation in the grip of the illusion. All the beauty and spice of life is there! Chop wood is really amazing experience of life - just look.
August 20 at 7:30pm via mobile
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Jon I really like the simplicity that you point too Elena. And of course you are accurate in the spice being there, just have to appreciate the subtler forms and doses, and I don't have to go looking for it or attempt to create the facade or drama to give life meaning. Thank you my friend(s).
August 21 at 1:03am
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Mateo Geoly simple is wonderfull- full of it- full of not-knowing but somehow
there's this wild "YES!"
you like it... dig it. welcome home Jon.
August 21 at 2:08am
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Elena Since fundamentally there is no separation, every time one relaxes, it benefits all. You will start to notice it, Jon. look around, tell us more what's happening. ♥
August 21 at 5:04am
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Jon Went to a concert last night and I noticed first that "I" didn't have a predatory hunger. Next the music had so much more juice to it, the more I relaxed into and enjoyed the concert it seems the whole hall was doing the same, we were all enjoying it in our own ways but sharing it completely.
August 21 at 9:31am
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Jon Yesterday I spent some time on the RT web and read some of the blogs; interesting method, very in yer face and ruthless I guess. Some of the languaging seems overly obnoxious, but I suppose some want and need this. I'll keep going back though, because it's an excellent example of just how elemental one needs to get to really undo the conditioning life or rather maya has given us for all these years. I don't make the mistake of victim here either, I chose that along with everyone else; the sheeple mentality I dwelt in for many years. Even though I managed to pull out a year and a half ago, there are/were still much elemental places I hadn't exposed to the truth of no me. An example of that is the very reason we started this dialogue. Wow, that seems ages ago! LOL!
August 21 at 9:40am
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Elizabeth Sheeple! heh, my brother's favourite word.
August 21 at 9:41am
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Elizabeth Yah, I was afraid of the shouty people on the threads (as I am a delicate flower, lol) but since 35 years of seeking was not doing it, and had eaten that thin f&&%$ing gruel at various retreats, I felt a few capitolized letters on the internet were low risk. And I was not abused, actually, much loved and welcomed. Wlecome, Jon.
August 21 at 9:44am
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Jon Thank you Liz, it is rather refreshing. Not the profanity but the depth of digging for actual and sustained truth. I will go there frequently and that other site, I think you suggested also. This is all so.....rewarding? Freeing? I think you know what I mean! ;)
August 21 at 9:56am
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Elizabeth Yes. All that, does not seem to end, just flowing. Even Jed the hard ass just sat sometimes and dissolved into gratitude. Life is more than enough.
August 21 at 10:00am
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Jon Listening to warfare today doing yard work. He was talking about prayer, about how prayer is unnecessary if one is alignment with the flow of the universe.
August 21 at 6:29pm
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Elena Good day,Jon! Is there you in any shape or form? Take a good look, let me know!
August 21 at 6:31pm via mobile
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Jon Hello Elena! This won't be a straight answer. I'm not dancing around the question by any means, but getting used to the concept of me just being the universe observing/experiencing itself without a me in there takes some adjustment. I mean, was the universe observing itself while I chased the lawn mower around today? It's like I'm in the chores I do, but I'm not the chore or action being done. It's kind of an adventure with every mundane thing I do; to embrace life with that knowing that it's not in any way a part of me or I don't get any identity from it....it's just doing what's in front of me and experiencing it from the perspective of I'm not there.
August 21 at 6:51pm
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Mateo Geoly "It's kind of an adventure with every mundane thing I do..." fuckin'-a right! indeedy senor.
August 21 at 7:03pm
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Mateo Geoly ...wonder's one of my favoritest words...
August 21 at 7:08pm
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Elizabeth Mateo, why is your poetry so good and your posts so hard to follow?!
August 21 at 8:29pm
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Elena Elizabeth, we have this on-going thing with Mateo about his post's clarity:) Much love to you both♥
August 21 at 10:16pm
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Elena Jon, you are dancing around :)
August 21 at 10:17pm
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Elena Like you want to stay in a safe place to look around and get fuzzy with "new concept". It's not new concept. It's true. So why hide? Anything not clear - let's look.
August 21 at 10:19pm
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Jon Yes, dancing is a good word for it. A free flowing sort of dance eh? :}
August 21 at 10:19pm
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Elena So is there you dancing?
August 21 at 10:20pm
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Jon It doesn't feel like a me...a static me. It's more like being released from a mooring line so that what I experience is more flowing.
August 21 at 10:22pm
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Elena what is that "I" you used in you sentence? Define the "I"
August 21 at 10:24pm
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Jon more free than that....air flowing. A space in time and timeless.
August 21 at 10:24pm
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Elena That's the self? A space?
August 21 at 10:27pm
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Jon It's as if every insight that comes around is another experience that can be compared and released as another example of there being no specific I or me. Every "mundane" thing being done is another opportunity to experience the flow without the illusion of control.
August 21 at 10:30pm
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Jon The space is consciousness....a communication port or interface between the flow and physical reality.
August 21 at 10:33pm
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Elena Jon, nicely stated, so there is no controller, is it true?
August 21 at 10:34pm
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Elena wait, wait, I said that to the previous statement
August 21 at 10:35pm
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Jon The controller is no longer fighting for control, has given up the illusion of being a controller. The job now has a new name....Interfacer! he he
August 21 at 10:35pm
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Jon but there is no job really
August 21 at 10:36pm
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Elena What is there?
August 21 at 10:36pm
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Jon I don't know.
August 21 at 10:37pm
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Jon I don't even know if that matters that I don't know
August 21 at 10:37pm
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Elena No, you know
August 21 at 10:37pm
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Jon asking me to dig through air? ha ha
August 21 at 10:38pm
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Elena Jon, don't be weird, friend. I need to see if you saw the illusion or not. You are playing a game of words with me. I need to see you you are through or not. I see you are in a great spirits - good, I am happy for you. Can you please concentrate for our own work sake, and confirm you or see if you are not through yet. Would you do it with me?
August 21 at 10:39pm
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Jon What is there is everything! All coelescing for and experience
August 21 at 10:40pm
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Jon an experience
August 21 at 10:40pm
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Elena what is "I"?
August 21 at 10:41pm
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Jon I is an illusory name for a dreamer that isn't lucid
August 21 at 10:42pm
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Elena who is the dreamer you are talking about?
August 21 at 10:42pm
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Jon Good question. The dreamer is an unconsciousness that dreamed itself into a quasi reality.
August 21 at 10:44pm
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Elena So is there actual you?
August 21 at 10:45pm
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Jon No, that one got the rug pulled out with the batman metephor.
August 21 at 10:46pm
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Elena Was there you before we pulled the rug out?
August 21 at 10:47pm
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Jon just the illusion of such
August 21 at 10:47pm
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Elena Cool. Confirm from me. I really appreciate you took the time to go through these questions today. And I do appreciate these 3 days we were doing it - this thread will help many people to see the illusion. Thank you, Jon! ♥ Keep in touch ! Love ya♥
August 21 at 10:49pm
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Jon It took a few days to sweep the ashes that were built around the illusion though.
August 21 at 10:49pm
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Jon The time you took with me is greatly appreciated my friend. My wife is very interested in this process too. I copied our conversations for her to read also.
August 21 at 10:51pm
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Jon Many thanks Elena! hugs
August 21 at 10:51pm
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Elena and it will take some time, as we spoke, as conditioning was built up for many many years. But now - nothing glue it together - will start to shed
August 21 at 10:51pm
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Elena You can help your wife - point gently but firmly to see what is real and what is not - that's about it. If you need help - I am here: completehumanity @ gmail dot com
August 21 at 10:53pm
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