Thursday, August 11, 2011

Looking with You Demanded that There Was Real Looking

Hey Elena,
Read your note on the gateless gate and feel like im going back and forth, like it's not really clear for me .. yet .. or something.

One moment it's just pristine and shining the next i feel caught up in restrictions ... great to have people who are willing to share around!

Elena: Hey, K.! Thanks for the note. What is not clear? Let's see.

K: There has been all kinds of things going on the last weeks ... month :D:D
And i'm a little afraid of what our sharing might lead to too .. just a little, but enough to make me feel a little hesitant writing to you

Elena: Actually, good timing K. Perfect timing. So send me an email on Monday - this email - Write anything you want about yourself, what's going on, why you want to look and etc. Talk to you soon! Elena

Elena, you said I should send you an email on Monday, and where I live, Monday passed already, but you live in the US, right? So it’s kinda Monday still?

I’ve been reading a bit at the RT FB page and RT forums, even read half the Brutal Beginnings Workbook. This was … Sunday or Saturday .. and I had kind of an opening .. again .. cant really say im sure as sure im at the right place though, so grateful if I get your feedback and guidance on this.

A little about me. 30 y.o now, 10 years ago I noticed I wasn’t getting things I wanted done done, so I started looking for a method, way of being or resolutions for the thoughts and patterns that kept me from the things I wanted to achieve. Was mostly physical things I think, enlightenment wasn’t on the table yet. Messed around for some years with different yoga and mind focusing techniques. Read Eckhart Tolle 3 or 4 years back, really pointed me to the space (awareness, emptiness) which we are. My mind wasn’t ready to give up concepts at the time though .. or however it works, the mind I mean .. so got both insights and frustrations out of that reading. Few years back I started to come across non dual teachers like Adyashanti which seemed, and I guess still seems to be talking more about this “awareness that is us”.

Ok, starting to get to the point now Elena.

So watching and reading so called nondual teachings have given me many experiences of Seeing without a person doing the seeing. Then, the I (as a person) comes back when there is pulling back into identification and trying to resolve emotions and thoughts mentally. Like labeling and wondering what “I” can do to become enlightened.

Think I have mentally understood that “all is one”, and therefore there can be no me, because the perceived me is just another “part” of the one. The one being everything..

.. and now there is a feeling of knowing that whatever is typed in this mail is just .. the one. That there is no me as a person separate from everything else that going on typing. And also there is a feeling of uncertainty if there is REALLY seeing, or just another belief system identification.

I’ve seen how people are told to talk simple, be as honest as they can and most of all SIT DOWN, SHUT UP AND LOOK. I want to do that, but im not quite sure HOW, and maybe WHERE to LOOK. Thank you. K.
Hi, K.,

From what you wrote  - you had many states of onness or whatever you can call it, but that is impermanent experience, otherwise you won't still keep searching, agree?

What we call looking - is active work - focusing on seeing what is real and what is not. By showing the mind what is the difference, and showing the mind - look this is real, look this is illusionary, permanent change happens in the brain. People often mix up state and liberation. Liberation has nothing to do with state - state is like a grace - who knows what happens, but I am in this cool state where there is no me and all one, right?

Looking in an active work to see reality as it is.

I would suggest for you to leave all the reading aside, you read enough. Just keep focus on our work.  What I want from you - either live and do what you have to do in your life or if you are working - 100% focus on looking - no reading, no philosophizing - looking. Deal?

K: That was fast!

Agreed, state is not freedom, it passes.

Most states i've been in there is still something claiming ownership over the experience, and then there is a return to more thinking, so yes, agreed.

Do you think i should read the rest of Brutal Beginnings? These days i dont read much .. other than now .. the RT stuff .. guess the mind find things to attach to and believe in there too .. so no philosophizing or reading then. Deal.

Im gonna ask as if i dont know anything, because what i think i know might be wrong;
how do we see what is real and what is illusionary? Is it like .. an emotion is real, the story the mind produce around the emotion is fiction/illusionary?

You can read Brutal Beginnings, if you want. I didn't go to the end, so have no idea what's there, probably same Look. Fucking Look. Fuck. Look. LOOK.:) Good Gate staff!

OK. How do we look?

We look at real things and compare to illusionary things by plain, physical look at them. Nothing mystical, nothing non-dual, nothing hard. Simple look with your eyes.

So if I tell you to look at the table, would it be difficult for you to spot the table? DO you need to tense your eyes or mind? NO. Because table is a part of the reality. It exist.
Even if you close your eyes table will be there anyway. Right? So we established what is real.

Now, I will say look at the Shrek in your room. Can you see shrek in your room just as simple like the table? No.
What you have is thought of Shrek, feeling, sensation - easily - because thought, feeling and sensations are part of the reality. They exist. Shrek - no. Its illusion.

Now, I will say look at self. Can you easily spot self? What is there you can spot easily? Thought of self, feelings, sensations. Yep - they are there, that's right - they exist in the reality. Look for the actual self. Can you find?

It's like a Shrek - illusion.

Take a good look.

Hi Elena.

Like you wrote yesterday, there is feeling, thoughts and sensation of and about self, but self as real and easy to spot as a table.. other than the feeling of it. No. Dont feel free though, feel like there is something trying to solve or see something .. or maybe a strong identification with the feeling of what i have been used to thinking of as the self.

Elena: only what holds you is the un-trust in your own experience in favor to the learned belief. If I tell you to find Shrek in the room, you won't even go search. So why even search for the self then? There is no self exists in the reality, just a label.

As a baby did you thought about your self? You was one with everything - flow in - flow out. Life just the same as it was before. No self needed. Look. Tell me what is going on in your head.

K: Im looking at what feels like the self to see if i can identify anything there. What feels like the self is located in the front and upper parts of my brain, as if it is from there that the thoughts and emotions about Me has it's root. So there is looking at that, and annoyance for not being able to distinct anything, eihter confirmation that there is no self, or confirmation that there is. When i look emotions and feelings in the head have this very familiar feeling that im used to thinking is me, like the me center ... i can move the attention downwards, kinda like spread it out and everything is ok. Like seeing it is just .. the mind doing mindstuff and emotions being felt. So, like you say, i dont trust if that is .. it doesnt seem like freedom to me .. also seems like looking at it and using the mind to try to "understand" makes the "me" feeling stronger and more difficult to handle.. it is confusing.

As for the baby analogy, it is my impression too that the Me comes in after we are born, memories and preferences and so on, still there is a pull into a Me identification ..
.. hard to just look without expecting something to happen .. or like .. "it should be different than this not having a self" thoughts ..

.. and then i let the feelings of inadequcy and annoyance be just what is here and now, just letting them be, and i "fall" into some relaxed not striving mode .. and then it is back to looking if i can understand or get this right ..

I read again what you wrote me after mailing my answer. "There is no self exists in the reality, just a label" .. feels like that has been seen trough many times for "me", but there is so much connected to that label that it keep ... staying "real" .. the very feeling of being alive as .. this being, is connected to it. Im trying to get away from it still .. or .. it is trying to get away from itself .. creates feeling of hurt and conflict.. and then everything is ok again, even the hurt and conflict .. lol

Elena: you said 2 times already: it does not feel like freedom for me. Thats right. You are not free. Feelings of frustration and inadequacy? They are real. These are movements in consciousness. There is no you to be an originator of them. There is no you to be an owner of them. Why when you "let them be" you feel more relaxed and spacious, as you said? Because at that moment you relaxed ownership of the feeling. Feeling is. You - not. look.

K: Just going to express this, then go back to looking .. or .. sleeping first.

Saturday, i was reading on the RT fb page about this guy who seemingly had the same "problem" as me. Being tangled up in concepts so the feeling of Being mix with the feeling of Me. Reading that tread pointed me "through" to what felt like the other side, although, everything but the seeing was the same. Just the clarity of not being a person, but .. just being experience. After that it has been even easier to see that thoughts are just thoughts. Experiencing something is just experience.

For some time, like an hour after this, everything was so clear. No me, no owner of experience, just everything happening as in a pre-coordinated play.

I wasn't expecting it would go back to feel like it always did .. and i think that is what hooks me .. there was a "revelation", and now it's just ... this, and the feeling of me again .. lol.

Ok, there is babbling now, and much fear of thinking things are clear, but taking understanding of concepts for seeing reality... im repeating myself.. sleep for me now Elena. Complicating things seem to be the minds nature ...

Thanks for spending time with me, i'll write earlier tomorrow .. if there is something to write.


Elena: I see, so you had a seeing, right? You had a state, but also you saw, mind saw - there is no self. What exactly in that conversation brought you there? Go back, re-read and point me to the exact place.

K: Yes, there was seeing. Or at least it felt/feels like it. There was a experience of coming into clarity of what is, and what isn't. The conversation im referring too is the one on the Nexus group between Zach and Shae.

This post opened up a space: 

"I wonder if perhaps there are self attachments around "no self" and how others "should" respond to you? But back to the point..."
I see what you're saying. No-self is not the be-all end-all, realization to end all realizations.
No. It's really nothing like that. I hope it doesn't come across that way. Really it's a silly little thing, a small little realization, that happens to be true and is useful to know."

And this post made the seeing very clear:

"The illusion. The illusion is real. It's a real illusion.
Kind of like, the fiction of Batman is a real fiction. The fiction is actually there. It's just that it's a fiction. Do you see that?"

It seems the "I" keep coming back in me because there is expectations in the mind that things should change more than they do.

Im not sure why it is not sinking in, maybe because i expect it too. Gonna keep looking at what is real and what is assumptions.

K:“It seems the "I" keep coming back in me because there is expectations in the mind that things should change more than they do”
Elena: yes

K: Im not sure why it is not sinking in, maybe because i expect it too. Gonna keep looking at what is real and what is assumptions.

Elena: how you would like it to sink in? What exactly you expect?

K: There is still expectations of some enlightened state and clarity. That the feeling of living would change more.. or, the feeling of experiencing this body and mind would change more. But then, it has changed in some fundamental way, still there is expectation of less mind activity. And that raises the question "Am I making this up, or is this the real deal?". That question has been there for a long time though lol ... so in experience, there is a "me" who are afraid to mess things up.

Elena: Ok, lets look. what is that? Break it down. It's a doubt? Fear? What?

K: Hi Elena :)

Were into some video game last night after i came home skateboarding, so didnt answer you then.

And just woke up now, so i don't have any answers, just being is enough right at this very moment.

I'll answer your last mail when i come around (when there is something to say).


Elena: Let's confirm you K., I really feel you are through, it is that simple and mind may not believe. Let's confirm what is, ok?

So you looked and you saw  - no self, "I" is a thought that labels experience moment by moment

What would you say?

K: Yes, it is seen, funny that there is no one here caring about it anymore hehehe.

Looking with you demanded that there was real looking, and it seems as that was a trigger towards "understanding". I put it in " " because nothing is really understood, it is just a letting go of attachment to experience.

Also i thought it would feel like an accomplishment, but it isnt, it just is. Guess there need to be attachment for there to be an accomplisher.

In reality there isn't and have never been a "solid me", the me is an social accepted assumption that we exist separately. It is memories and stories pulled forth and highlighted in the mind, and then, since we were presented with an individual existing self from the people around us when we grew up we got programmed to live with that assumption that the "I" is all we came to think of it as; "me", "mine", "i am ..." which had/has practical value in daily interaction, but never existed as a object in reality.

It seems that what changed is an acceleration of seeing concepts that was previously thought to have value, i.e believed and search for, as just debris in the mind. Seems this had been an ongoing process the last few years. A process that has left less and less of the seeker in the mind.

Also, for whats left of the seeking mind (or maybe it is just a habit for it to be active) it is hard to accept that the dream of enlightenment was just a dream of something very different from Reality as it is here now - Just this, as it is. 
Hehehe, English is not my first language, and didn't spell check this, doesn't really matter does it???? hahaha (i used to care more)

Much love to you Elena, thanks.

Elena: Much love, K.! So life continues:) I am very happy for you. English is not my first language either. So we understood each other perfectly. And it is interesting how sometimes not much needed, except being with one and point attention just a little. See you around. Warmly, Elena